Fin de l'eurozone en vue ?

[José]

  Citation

Support for euro in doubt as Germans reject Latin bloc notes

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

Last Updated: 1:26am BST 13/06/2008

Notes printed in Berlin have more currency for bank customers who fear a 'value crisis'

Ordinary Germans have begun to reject euro bank notes with serial numbers from Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal, raising concerns that public support for monetary union may be waning in the eurozone's anchor country.

Germany's Handelsblatt newspaper says bankers have detected a curious pattern where customers are withdrawing cash directly from branches, screening the notes to determine the origin of issue. They ask for paper from the southern states to be exchanged for German notes.

Each country prints its own notes according to its economic weight, under strict guidelines from the European Central Bank in Frankfurt. The German notes have an "X"' at the start of the serial numbers, showing that they come from the Bundesdruckerei in Berlin.

Italian notes have an "S" from the Instituto Poligrafico in Rome, and Spanish notes have a "V" from the Fabrica Nacional de Moneda in Madrid. The notes are entirely interchangeable and circulate freely through the eurozone and, indeed, beyond.

People clearly suspect that southern notes may lose value in a crisis, or if the eurozone breaks apart. This is what happened in the US in the Jackson era of the 1840s when dollar notes from different regions traded at different values.

"The scurrilous idea behind this is that if the eurozone should succumb to growing divergences, then it is best to cling to most stable countries," said the Handelsblatt.

"There are no grounds for panic. The Italian state is not Bear Stearns," it said.

Germans appear to be responding to a mix of concerns. Many own property in Spain or Portugal and have become aware of the Iberian housing slump.

A spate of news articles in the German press has begun to highlight the economic rift between the North and South of eurozone.

There is criticism of comments from Italian, Spanish, and French politicians that threaten the independence of the ECB, viewed as sacrosanct in Germany.

But the key concern appears to be price stability. Germany's wholesale inflation rate reached 8.1pc in May, the highest level in 26 years.

The cost of bread, milk and other staples has rocketed, adding to the sense that prices are spiralling out of control. Ordinary people are blaming the new currency - the "Teuro" - a pun on expensive - for their travails in the supermarket, even though the recent spike in farm goods and energy prices has nothing to do with monetary union.

Inflation touches a very sensitive nerve in Germany. Holger Schmeiding, from Bank of America, said the country had suffered two traumatic sets of inflation in living memory, first in Weimar in 1923 and then in 1948.

"People suffered a 90pc haircut on financial assets in the currency reform of 1948. The inflationary effects of two world wars were catastrophic," he said.

A group of leading German professors warned at the outset of EMU that the euro would tend to be weaker than old Deutsche Mark, and that it would fuel inflation over time. German citizens were never given a vote on the abolition of the D-Mark, which had become a symbol of Germany's rebirth after the war.

Many have kept a stash of D-Marks hidden in mattresses to this day. A recent IPOS poll showed that 59pc of Germany now had serious doubts about the euro.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm…C-mostviewedbox

[vincponcet]

Url ?

Note pour tout le monde, toujours mettre sa source. sinon, le propos n'est réutilisable.

Question crédibilité, ce n'est pas la même chose si c'est infos du monde qui dit quelque chose ou financial times.

EDIT : voici l'URL : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm…3/cneuro113.xml

[José]

  vincponcet a dit :

Url ?

Oops : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm…C-mostviewedbox

[walter-rebuttand]

Surréalisme

  Citation

Spanish notes have a "V" from the Fabrica Nacional de Moneda in Madrid.

Si les Allemands sont si concernés par l'inflation, qu'ils rendent leur monnaie convertible et le problème sera réglé.

[vincponcet]

  walter-rebuttand a dit :

Surréalisme

Si les Allemands sont si concernés par l'inflation, qu'ils rendent leur monnaie convertible et le problème sera réglé.

Ne pas assimiler citoyens et gouvernement.

Tu utilises "les allemands" avec deux sens différents dans la même phrase.

Ceux qui sont concernés par l'inflation, ce sont les honnêtes citoyens. Ceux qui peuvent rendre la monnaie convertible, ce sont les politiciens.

[walter-rebuttand]

  vincponcet a dit :

Ne pas assimiler citoyens et gouvernement.

Tu utilises "les allemands" avec deux sens différents dans la même phrase.

Ceux qui sont concernés par l'inflation, ce sont les honnêtes citoyens. Ceux qui peuvent rendre la monnaie convertible, ce sont les politiciens.

Ceux qui invoquent sans cesse l'inflation pour justifier leur politique monétaire, ce sont les politiciens de la BCE. (ex-Bundesbank)

[vincponcet]

  walter-rebuttand a dit :

Ceux qui invoquent sans cesse l'inflation pour justifier leur politique monétaire, ce sont les politiciens de la BCE. (ex-Bundesbank)

Le fil parlait des honnêtes citoyens qui craignent les billets euros venant des pays en déclin de l'Europe.

Et la BCE, ce n'est pas la bundesbank, le président en est notamment français. Et question discours, la BCE parle en effet de lutter contre l'inflation et annonce une hausse des taux, donc bien quelque chose qui va dans le sens de moins d'inflation. Bien sûr, les taux sont encore trop haut. Mais ton point était que le discours anti-inflation de la BCE allait avec des mesures pro-inflation, ce n'est pas le cas.

Il ne faut pas tout mélanger.

[walter-rebuttand]

  vincponcet a dit :

Le fil parlait des honnêtes citoyens qui craignent les billets euros venant des pays en déclin de l'Europe.

Et la BCE, ce n'est pas la bundesbank, le président en est notamment français. Et question discours, la BCE parle en effet de lutter contre l'inflation et annonce une hausse des taux, donc bien quelque chose qui va dans le sens de moins d'inflation. Bien sûr, les taux sont encore trop haut. Mais ton point était que le discours anti-inflation de la BCE allait avec des mesures pro-inflation, ce n'est pas le cas.

Il ne faut pas tout mélanger.

Ce n'est pas parce que le président est français que ce n'est pas en gros la Bundesbank et la même politique.

En outre, quels que soient les discours de la BCE, ils ne mènent pas une politique contre l'inflation: chacun peut constater qu'elle n'a jamais cessé et sûrement pas depuis l'apparition de l'Euro.

Enfin, les honnêtes citoyens en question feraient bien de se poser les bonnes questions quant aux causes fondamentales de l'inflation.

[vincponcet]

  walter-rebuttand a dit :

Ce n'est pas parce que le président est français que ce n'est pas en gros la Bundesbank et la même politique.

En outre, quels que soient les discours de la BCE, ils ne mènent pas une politique contre l'inflation: chacun peut constater qu'elle n'a jamais cessé et sûrement pas depuis l'apparition de l'Euro.

La BCE est plus inflationniste que l'ex-bundesbank. C'est bien pour cela que les allemands sont majoritairement anti-euro.

Mais cela ne veux rien dire, ça serait un autre président, ça pourrait être autrement.

  walter-rebuttand a dit :

Enfin, les honnêtes citoyens en question feraient bien de se poser les bonnes questions quant aux causes fondamentales de l'inflation.

Lla plupart des gens ne comprennent pas les conséquences économiques même sur eux-mêmes de telle ou telle réglementation à laquelle ils sont apriori favorables.

Si les gens savaient, on aurait déjà une grosse partie du boulot de conviction qui serait gagné.

ce qui n'exclut pas le fait que des gens veulent voler leurs voisins, mais c'est un autre sujet.

[Jesrad]

J'échange des billets "potables" contre deux fois les mêmes billets émis par des zones "rejetées", si ça les intéresse.

[h16]

Tiens, moi aussi.

[Blondie]

Alors d'un nouveau passage au monnaies nationales, les banques allemandes convertiront leur euros automatiquement en DM, quelque soit la nationalité du client. La conversion du liquide se fera plus tard, et les zeuropeens auront le choix entre DM, FF, Lira….

[José]

Un article interessant sur la circulation du franc français au coeur de la Gaule qui résiste à l'envahisseur européen. Une preuve que la monnaie est un choix du marché, non une décision bureaucratique. Et si des Français continuent d'accepter et de commercer avec des francs, pour n'importe quel motif, c'est bien parce que des alternatives valides existent. Les monnaies, comme toutes les marchandises doivent pouvoir circuler librement et se faire la concurrence. C'est, en définitive, une décision individuelle qui devrait être toujours respectée, que l'on fasse du commerce, épargne ou investisse.

  Citation

In the French heartland, the franc lives on

By Steven Erlanger Published: June 29, 2008

COLLOBRIÈRES, France: Christine Amrane says it is mostly about profit, not just protest and nostalgia. This isolated village has decided to accept the French franc in everyday commerce, along with the euro, and the colorful old bills adorned with French heroes and writers have got people thinking.

Not too radically, of course. Collobrières, after all, is deep in Provence, a picturesque little place of 1,600 people, with a perfect, tiled village square, commanded by city hall and a café with a table of old men playing cards and drinking pastis, all shaded by huge plane trees from the hot southern sun.

"We lost something with the franc," said Amrane, the mayor since 2001. "We lost an identity. We moved very quickly into Europe, maybe too quickly."

Along with mostly visa-free travel, the introduction of the euro in 2002 was heralded as a great step in the building of a united Europe. But printed with images of imaginary bridges and buildings, and with no portraits of anyone, living or dead, euro bills are as faceless as the Eurocrats who run the institutions of the new Europe.

While Europeans value the ease of travel that the euro has encouraged, they also think that the new currency created inflation by allowing merchants to round up costs. And of course the European Central Bank means that countries can no longer adjust their interest rates and exchange rates to suit their particular economic circumstances.

Nathalie Lepeltier, a 39-year-old baker who launched the idea of accepting the old franc, says that "the euro has made life more expensive - prices are much higher." Whether the euro is at fault or not, people certainly believe that it is.

"People have lost the concept of the value of money with the euro, because of the euro," Lepeltier said. People remember the price in francs, and they're shocked now when they use francs at how much more everything costs."

Amrane's husband retired and started getting his pension in 2001, before the euro. "He was paid in francs and now in euros, and it's not at all the same," she said. "There's a general malaise."

The autumn chestnut festival is on the minds of the people here more than political protest. Paris is 860 kilometers, or 535 miles, away, and Brussels even farther.

But the European Union is a source of confusion and annoyance, both abstract and distant. The French were not allowed to vote in a referendum on the complicated Lisbon Treaty to reorganize the workings of the enlarged union of 27 nations. France, like most countries, thought it safer to ratify the treaty in Parliament, where the government holds a majority.

But the Irish voted, and voted no. And there's a lot of sympathy for them here.

France is thought to be the beating heart of the European vision, but the last time the French voted on an earlier version of Lisbon, in 2005, they voted no - and polls say they would reject it in its current form.

The Irish vote brought both criticism and handwringing about the "democratic deficit" of bureaucratic European institutions with few connections to European voters. But the Irish are not alone in having their doubts about how to make a Europe grown to 27 countries, with more on the way, function both efficiently and democratically.

The Irish no has also been a major blow to France, which takes over the six-month presidency of the European Union on Tuesday.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has been full of ideas on how to push Europe along, as another way to restore some of his lost credibility here. But the Irish rejection means that France will spend much of its time - really 4.5 months, with the long European summer vacation - trying to manage Europe's internal crisis.

"I'm a convinced European, but I have some problems with it," Amrane said, displaying an EU form she has to fill out. "There are no real bearings - no real identity as Europeans. We need more time."

But enough about Europe, she said. "I want to talk about Collobrières, the most beautiful village in the world!"

Lepeltier, the baker, runs the local association of merchants and artisans, and she had the idea of taking francs after hearing about the experience of another small town, Le Blanc.

Here, too, people who had saved franc bills or found stacks of them in old drawers or the traditional French "woolen stocking" - the French still don't really trust banks - took them out to spend.

First considered a joke, the franc exchange increased profits. The village has taken in 120,000 francs, or about €18,300 at the legally fixed rate of exchange.

One man came here after finding 20,000 francs in an old jacket and 40,000 francs more in the back of a drawer.

"He spent it all!" Lepeltier said. "It was a great festival. He said he preferred to spend it than exchange it" - probably, she conceded, to avoid questions from the taxman.

The Bank of France will take the last franc bills issued in each denomination for exchange until Feb. 17, 2012. But all franc coins and older bills are now worthless, so everyone accepts only those francs they can exchange. "We're merchants, not a charity!" Lepeltier said.

Jean-Louis Nonque, who sells regional products like chestnut honey, chestnut cream and candied chestnuts at his shop near the 12th-century bridge, says he was skeptical.

But he took in 2,120 francs in the last 10 days. Asked if he had kept any francs as souvenirs, he laughed and said: "Just the coins. The bills are worth too much."

Asked about the Lisbon Treaty, he said carefully: "I understand the Irish."

In the central square - called the Place de la Libération, of course - customers at the Bar de la Mairie, across from the city hall, were less angry about Europe than confused.

Aurélien Autran, 29, does not care about the franc. "The old ones, maybe," he said, describing how his grandmother thinks in old francs, then converts them to new francs and then, slowly, to the euro.

He likes the euro so he can go to Spain and buy cheap cigarettes and alcohol.

As for the Irish, he said: "They don't even know what's in the treaty, so of course they voted no."

Were they right? Autran looked puzzled, then country-shrewd.

"Well, I don't know what's in the treaty either, so I can't say."

From a nearby table, a young man said, "What's Lisbon?" Another said, "Oh, that's this trick of Sarkozy, this Union of the Mediterranean."

When he was told Lisbon was something different, he scratched his head.

"Maastricht?" he asked, naming an earlier European treaty.

The owner of the bar, Frédéric de Kersauson, 42, stopped taking francs in May and says that he is sick of the whole subject.

"People came in here with 500 francs and ordered a coffee," he said. "It wasn't worth it. The franc is dead!"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/29/europe/france.php

[Sous-Commandant Marco]

  Lucilio a dit :

Un article interessant sur la circulation du franc français au coeur de la Gaule qui résiste à l'envahisseur européen. […]

En plus, Collobrières, c'est absolûment magnifique.

[h16]

Que fout un de Kersauson en plein milieu de la Provence ?!

[José]

  h16 a dit :

Que fout un de Kersauson en plein milieu de la Provence ?!

Faites confiance à Galileo !

[Sous-Commandant Marco]

  h16 a dit :

Que fout un de Kersauson en plein milieu de la Provence ?!

C'est marqué: c'est un collègue de Lucilio il est patron de bar. Surpris?