Le Jeu Vidéo Dans Le Colimateur étatique

[leprof]

  Roniberal a dit :

Souviens-toi de Meadows et Forrester, ces professeurs du MIT qui avaient fait ces études et qui avaient remis un rapport apocalyptique au Club de Rome: et bien, ils venaient du MIT! Comme quoi, même de grands esprits peuvent passer à côté de la plaque.

Mais ils peuvent aussi avoir raison. Pour être sur on va dire plusieurs études indépendantes alors.

[Roniberal]

  leprof a dit :

Mais ils peuvent aussi avoir raison.

A mon avis, il va y avoir quelques contradictions mais bon…

[leprof]

  Roniberal a dit :

A mon avis, il va y avoir quelques contradictions mais bon…

Possible.

[Morrisson]

Il me semble que Antoninov a donne une reponse claire ( j'ai fait un dossier de 17 pages sur ce sur sujet, utlisant pas mal de ces sources).

Il n'y a aucune correlation demontree entre violence et jeux-videos, ou meme une quelconques influence autre que sur des sujet a la marge( c'est a dire deja derange dans leur tete, et dans ce cas la que ce soit jeux-videos , film ou bien meme musique[ ben oui le rock musique demoniaque , tout ca tout ca]) .

Tu peux enculer des mouches comme tu veux prof , mais la realite va revenir vite fait: Le jeux-video c'est innofensif. C'est meme un tres bon loisir et j'encouragerais mes enfants a jouer( quand j'en aurais ).

Moi meme je joue a tout les FPS , RPG et hack'n'slash que je trouve, je tue/fragmente/arrache a la pelle, et je suis quelqu'un de normal , comnme les 200 autres gamers que je doit connaitre.

Le JV commence meme en france est reconnu comme un e-sport , et les commes gagne augmente vite ( 400 000 euros au vainqueur de la coupe du monde , ca va . )

Tient ici une etude academique qui ne montre aucune correlation :

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/15/vi…and_aggression/

Tient quelques fait sur le site de l'ESA ( mais ce sera forcement partisan j'imagine): http://www.theesa.com/index.php

  Citation

. U.S. computer and video game software sales grew four percent in 2005 to $7 billion -- a more than doubling of industry software sales since 1996.

2. Sixty-nine percent of American heads of households play computer and video games.

3. The average game player is 33 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.

4. The average age of the most frequent game buyer is 40 years old. In 2006, 93 percent of computer game buyers and 83 percent of console game buyers were over the age of 18.

5. Eighty-five percent of all games sold in 2005 were rated "E" for Everyone, "T" for Teen, or "E10+" for Everyone 10+. For more information on ratings, please see www.esrb.org.

6. Eighty-seven percent of game players under the age of 18 report that they get their parents’ permission when renting or buying games, and 89 percent say their parents are present when they buy games.

7. Thirty-five percent of American parents say they play computer and video games. Further, 80 percent of gamer parents say they play video games with their kids. Sixty-six percent feel that playing games has brought their families closer together.

8. Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%).

9. In 2005, 25 percent of Americans over the age of 50 played video games, an increase from nine percent in 1999.

10. Forty-four percent of game players say they play games online one or more hours per week. In addition, 32 percent of heads of households play games on a wireless device, such as a cell phone or PDA, up from 20 percent in 2002.

  Citation

Game Player Data

How Many People Play Computer and Video Games?

* Fifty percent of all Americans play video games.

Who Purchases Computer and Video Games?

* Ninety-three percent of people who make the actual purchase of computer games and 83% of people who make the actual purchase of video games are 18 years of age or older. The average age of the game buyer is 40 years old.

How Long Have Gamers Been Playing?

* Adult gamers have been playing an average of 12 years. Among most frequent gamers, adult males average 10 years for game playing, females for 8 years.

Will Gamers Keep Playing?

* Fifty-three percent of game players expect to be playing as much or more ten years from now than they do today.

Who Plays Computer and Video Games?

For Computer Gamers…

* Thirty percent of most frequent game players are under eighteen years old.

* Twenty-six percent of most frequent game players are between 18 and 35 years old.

* Forty-four percent of most frequent game players are over 35 years old.

For Console Gamers…

* Forty percent of most frequent game players are under eighteen years old.

* Thirty-five percent of most frequent game players are between 18 and 35 years old.

* Twenty-five percent of most frequent game players are over 35 years old.

What about Women Gamers?

* Thirty-eight percent of game players are women.

* Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%)

How Much Time Is Spent Playing Games?

* The average adult woman plays games 7.4 hours per week. The average adult man plays 7.6 hours per week. Though males spend more time playing than do females, the gender/time gap has narrowed significantly. Whereas in 2003, males spent an average of 18 more minutes a day playing games than did their female counterparts, in 2004 they spent ony six minutes more each day doing so. Females spend an average of two hours more per week playing games now than they did a year ago.

How many Gamers Play Games Online?

* Forty-four percent of most frequent game players say they play games online, up from 31% in 2002.

Who Plays Games Online?

* Fifty-eight of online game players are male.

* Forty-two percent of online game players are female.

What Other Activities are Gamers Involved In?

* Gamers devote more than triple the amount of time spent playing games each week to exercising or playing sports, volunteering in the community, religious activities, creative endeavors, cultural activities, and reading.

* In total, gamers spend 23.4 hours per week on these activities, compared to 6.8 hours per week playing games.

* Seventy-nine percent of game players of all ages report exercising or playing sports an average of 20 hours a month.

* Forty-five percent of gamers volunteer an average 5.4 hours per month.

* Ninety-three percent of game players also report reading books or daily newspapers on a regular basis, while sixty-two percent consistently attend cultural events, such as concerts, museums, or the theater.

* Fifty percent of gamers are regularly involved in creative activities, such as painting, writing, or playing an instrument. In addition, adult gamers exhibit a high level of interest in current events, with 94 percent following news and current events, and 78 percent reporting that they vote in most of the elections for which they are eligible.

  Citation

Parents & Games

Parents' Attitude Towards Games

* Sixty-one percent of parents with children under the age of 18 say that computer and video games are a positive addition to their children's lives.

Parents' Awareness of Game Content

* Ninety-one percent of parents surveyed who have children under the age of 18 said they monitor the content of the computer and video games their children play.

Parental Participation in Game Play

* Forty-nine percent of parents say they play computer and video games with their children at least once a month.

Parental Involvement in Game Purchases

* Parents are involved when games are purchased, with players under the age of 18 saying their parents were present at the point-of-sale 89 percent of the time.

The Top Four Reasons Parents Play Video Games With Their Children

* Because they are asked to (79%).

* It's fun for the entire family (75%).

* It's a good opportunity to socialize with the child (71%).

* It's a good opportunity to monitor game content (62%).

Parents Are Gamers Too

* Thirty-five percent of American parents say they play computer and video games. The typical gamer parent is 37 years old, and almost half of this group (47%) are women. Gamer parents have been playing games for an average of 13 years, with one-third reporting having played for 20 years or more, and spend 19 hours a month playing games.

Games Bring Families Closer Together

* Among "gamer parents", 80% report that they play video games with their children, and two-thirds (66%) feel that playing games has brought their families closer together. Gamer parents with child gamers in their household spend 9.1 hours a month playing games with their kids.

Gamer Parents Vote

* The typical gamer parent is 37 years old. Three-quarters (73%) of gamer parents say they are regular voters, with party affiliation at 36% Democrat and 35% Republican, similiar to the overall national averages.

Parents Say Game Regulation Is Not Government's Job

* A vast majority (85%) of all voter parents (both gamer and non-gamer) say that they - not government, retailers, or game publishers - should take the most responsibility in monitoring children's exposure to games that may have content that is inappropriate for minors. Further, by a nearly two to one margin (60% vs. 36%) parents agree that it is not the role of government to regulate game sales in an attempt to protect kids from exposure to violent and/or sexual video game content.

Ah oui et puis je te conseillle ce livre :

Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter

Ici un PDF sur les fait essentiel de 2006 a propos des jeux-videos et de son industrie:

http://www.theesa.com/archives/files/Essen…acts%202006.pdf

En fait je me rend compte que ce sont ceux qui ne jouent pas critiquent.

Tu devrais essayer de jouer a ICO ( PS2), ワンダと巨象 Shadow of the colossus ( PS2) , Zelda , Secret of Mana, Children of Mana , et meme des jeux comme Half Life 1,BattleField2 et j'en passe. ( Baldur's gate !! )

Ce que j'attend c'est des preuves de la these inverse. En attendant toute personne qui touche a mes jeux-videos jle bute. Pour les enfants c'est aux parents de voir( et moi ca sera regle: oui ). Basta ya .

[leprof]

  Morrisson a dit :

Tu devrais essayer de jouer a ICO ( PS2), ワンダと巨象 Shadow of the colossus ( PS2) , Zelda , Secret of Mana, Children of Mana , et meme des jeux comme Half Life 1,BattleField2 et j'en passe. ( Baldur's gate !! )

Tu t'adresse à qui ? Je suis le seul contradicteur, et je jouais beaucoup à une époque (plus le temps maintenant).

Pour le reste, ok.

[Morrisson]

Desole, je m'adressais a toi , je pensais que tu n'avais jamais joue.

Bon mais les conseils de jeux valent toujours si tu retrouve le temps .Je rajouterais Kingdom Hearts 2.

[leprof]

  Morrisson a dit :

Desole, je m'adressais a toi , je pensais que tu n'avait jamais jouer.

Bon mais les conseils de jeux valent toujours si tu retrouve le temps .Je rajouterait Kingdom Hearts 2.

Je reconnais que sur le coup j'ai un peu fait l'avocat du diable, mais au moins plusieurs études interessantes ont été citées.

[Saragator]

  leprof a dit :

Je reconnais que sur le coup j'ai un peu fait l'avocat du diable, mais au moins plusieurs études interessantes ont été citées.

J'arrive je le sais comme un cheveu sur la soupe, mais ce fil me fait poser une question similaire sur…la pornographie.

Qu'en pensez-vous ?

[leprof]

  Saragator a dit :

J'arrive je le sais comme un cheveu sur la soupe, mais ce fil me fait poser une question similaire sur…la pornographie.

Qu'en pensez-vous ?

Je crois qu'il y a eu un débat médiatique sur les tournantes assez misérables par rapport à ça.

Je garde les mêmes critères de biais idéologique pour les éventuelle études sur le sujet que certains voudront bien nous citer.

Dans les 2 cas, le fait d'avoir abuser des ces produits ne doit jamais être considéré comme une excuse pour user de violence physique ou sexuelle (à ce sujet les propros de certains psy sont à vomir…)

[h16]

  Saragator a dit :

J'arrive je le sais comme un cheveu sur la soupe, mais ce fil me fait poser une question similaire sur…la pornographie.

Qu'en pensez-vous ?

Il y a assez peu de jeux vidéos pornographiques. Mais les techniques progressent, et le joystick portera un jour vraiment bien son nom, j'en suis certain.

[Saragator]

  leprof a dit :

Je crois qu'il y a eu un débat médiatique sur les tournantes assez misérables par rapport à ça.

Je garde les mêmes critères de biais idéologique pour les éventuelle études sur le sujet que certains voudront bien nous citer.

Dans les 2 cas, le fait d'avoir abuser des ces produits ne doit jamais être considéré comme une excuse pour user de violence physique ou sexuelle (à ce sujet les propros de certains psy sont à vomir…)

Ma question est surtout de savoir jusqu'où l'État doit intervenir dans le domaine de la pornographie pour la protection de l'enfance.

[leprof]

  Saragator a dit :

Ma question est surtout de savoir jusqu'où l'État doit intervenir dans le domaine de la pornographie pour la protection de l'enfance.

Personellement la protection actuelle me convient. De fait ce sont les parents qui ont le dernier mot (surtout avec internet) et aller plus loin supposerait un controle de la vie privée intolérable.

[Saragator]

  leprof a dit :

Personellement la protection actuelle me convient. De fait ce sont les parents qui ont le dernier mot (surtout avec internet) et aller plus loin supposerait un controle de la vie privée intolérable.

Interdire le cinema au moins de 18 ans est devenu un peu absurde cependant, vu l'âge des premiers rapports qui diminue sans cesse (sans parler des connaissances sur le sujet).

[KaptN]

  Saragator a dit :

l'âge des premiers rapports diminue sans cesse

Justement, il me semble qu'il reste stable depuis quelques temps, à 17 ans, si mes souvenirs sont bons.

[h16]

  KaptN a dit :

Justement, il me semble qu'il reste stable depuis quelques temps, à 17 ans, si mes souvenirs sont bons.

Et de toute façon, y'a une limite basse, il me semble.

[Morrisson]

Peux de jeux pornographique? Ne vient jamais au japon a akihabara , ou il y a des immeubles entier de jeux hentai ( Si ca pose pas de pbs j'y vais et je poste une photos ici , ca vaut le coup d'oeil)

(d'ailleur je dois y retourner trouver cette foutu DS lite >.<).

Ps: je crois que y'a deja eu un fil sur la pronigraphie

Au fait ici une copie d'un article de The Economist, toujours sur le sujet ( donner en lien par Antoninov , mais personne ne clique sur les liens ):

  Citation

Chasing the dream

Aug 4th 2005

From The Economist print edition

As video gaming spreads, the debate about its social impact is intensifying

IS IT a new medium on a par with film and music, a valuable educational tool, a form of harmless fun or a digital menace that turns children into violent zombies? Video gaming is all these things, depending on whom you ask.

Gaming has gone from a minority activity a few years ago to mass entertainment. Video games increasingly resemble films, with photorealistic images, complex plotlines and even famous actors. The next generation of games consoles—which will be launched over the next few months by Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo—will intensify the debate over gaming and its impact on society, as the industry tries to reach out to new customers and its opponents become ever more vocal. Games consoles are the most powerful mass-produced computers in the world and the new machines will offer unprecedented levels of performance. This will, for example, make possible characters with convincing facial expressions, opening the way to games with the emotional charge of films, which could have broader appeal and convince sceptics that gaming has finally come of age as a mainstream form of entertainment. But it will also make depictions of violence even more lifelike, to the dismay of critics.

This summer there has been a huge fuss about the inclusion of hidden sex scenes in “Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas”, a highly popular, but controversial, game in which the player assumes the role of a street gangster. The sex scenes are not a normal part of the game (see above for a typical image). But the offending scenes can be activated using a patch downloaded from the internet. Senator Hillary Clinton and a chorus of other American politicians have called for federal prosecutors to investigate the game and examine whether the industry's system of self-regulation, which applies age ratings to games, is working properly. Mrs Clinton accused video games of “stealing the innocence of our children” and “making the difficult job of being a parent even harder”.

As a result of the furore, “Grand Theft Auto” had its rating in America changed—from “M” for mature (over-17s only) to “AO” for adults only (over-18s)—by the industry's rating board. But since most big retailers refuse to stock “AO” titles, of which very few exist, Rockstar Games, the maker of “Grand Theft Auto”, is producing a new “M”-rated version without the hidden sexual material. This is merely the latest round in a long-running fight. Before the current fuss over “Grand Theft Auto”, politicians and lobby groups were getting worked up over “Narc”, a game that depicts drug-taking, and “25 to Life”, another urban cops-and-robbers game.

Ironically, the “Grand Theft Auto” episode has re-ignited the debate over the impact of video games, just as the industry is preparing to launch its biggest-ever marketing blitz to accompany the introduction of its new consoles. Amid all the arguments about the minutiae of rating systems, the unlocking of hidden content, and the stealing of children's innocence, however, three important factors are generally overlooked: that attitudes to gaming are marked by a generational divide; that there is no convincing evidence that games make people violent; and that games have great potential in education.

Start with the demographics. Attitudes towards gaming depend to a great extent on age. In America, for example, half of the population plays computer or video games. However most players are under 40—according to Nielsen, a market-research firm, 76% of them—while most critics of gaming are over 40. An entire generation that began gaming as children has kept playing. The average age of American gamers is 30. Most are “digital natives” who grew up surrounded by technology, argues Marc Prensky of games2train, a firm that promotes the educational use of games. He describes older people as “digital immigrants” who, like newcomers anywhere, have had to adapt in various ways to their new digital surroundings.

Just getting by in a foreign land without some grasp of the local language is difficult, says Mr Prensky. Digital immigrants have had to learn to use technologies such as the internet and mobile phones. But relatively few of them have embraced video games. The word “game” itself also confuses matters, since it evokes childish playthings. “What they don't understand, because they've never played them, is that these are complex games, which take 30, 40 or 100 hours to complete,” says Mr Prensky. Games are, in fact, played mainly by young adults. Only a third of gamers are under 18.

“It's just a generational divide,” says Gerhard Florin, the European boss of Electronic Arts, the world's biggest games publisher. “It's people not knowing what they are talking about, because they have never played a game, accusing millions of gamers of being zombies or violent.” Digital natives who have played video games since childhood already regard them as a form of entertainment on a par with films and music. Older digital natives now have children of their own and enjoy playing video games with them.

The gaming industry is trying to address the generational divide. It is producing games designed to appeal to non-gamers and encouraging casual gamers (who may occasionally play simple web-based games, or games on mobile phones) to play more. This has led to the development of games with a wider appeal. Some of them replace the usual control pad with novel input devices: microphones for singing games, cameras for dancing and action games, and even drums. In addition, the industry has started to cater more to women, who seem to prefer social simulation games such as “The Sims”, and to older people, who (if they play games at all) often prefer computerised versions of card games and board games. Other promising avenues include portable gaming, mobile gaming and online downloads of simple games. Many people enjoy gaming, but do not necessarily want to commit themselves to an epic quest that will take dozens of hours to complete.

The industry, in short, is doing its best to broaden gaming's appeal, which is of course in its own best interests. For the time being, however, the demographic divide persists, and it does much to explain the polarisation of opinion over gaming and, in particular, worries about violence. It also provides the answer to a question that is often asked about gaming: when will it become a truly mainstream form of entertainment? It already is among the under-40s, but will probably never achieve mainstream status among older people.

But aren't critics right to worry that gaming might make people violent? Hardly a week goes by in which a game is not blamed for inspiring someone to commit a violent crime. After all, say critics, acting out violent behaviour in a game is very different from passively watching it in a film. Yet surveys of studies into games and violence have produced inconclusive results, notes Dmitri Williams, who specialises in studying the social impact of media at the University of Illinois. And, in a paper on the subject published in June in Communication Monographs, he notes that such research typically has serious shortcomings.

For example, studies have examined only the short-term effects of gaming. There have been no studies that track the long-term effects on the players themselves. Another problem, says Mr Williams, is that it is meaningless to generalise about “game play” when there are thousands of games in dozens of genres. It is, he notes, equivalent to suggesting that all television programmes, radio shows and movies are the same. Better-designed studies that measure the long-term effects of specific types of games are needed.

They're beginning to happen. In his paper, Mr Williams describes the first such study, which he carried out with Marko Skoric of the University of Michigan. The study concentrated on a “massively multiplayer online role-playing game” (MMORPG) called “Asheron's Call 2”. This type of game requires the player to roam around a fantasy world and kill monsters to build up attribute points. It is “substantially more violent than the average video game and should have more effect, given the highly repetitive nature of the violence”, the researchers noted.

Two groups of subjects were recruited, none of whom had played MMORPGs before and many of whom had never played video games at all. One group then played the game for a month, for an average of nearly two hours per day. The other group acted as a control. All participants were asked questions about the frequency of aggressive social interactions (such as arguments with their spouses) during the course of the month to test the idea that gaming makes people more aggressive.

Moral choices

Game players, it turned out, were no more aggressive than the control group. Whether the participants had played games before, the number of hours spent gaming, and whether they liked violent movies or not, made no difference. The researchers noted, however, that more research is still needed to assess the impact of other genres, such as shoot-'em-ups or the urban violence of “Grand Theft Auto”. All games are different, and only when more detailed studies have been carried out will it be possible to generalise about the impact of gaming.

But as Steven Johnson, a cultural critic, points out in a recent book, “Everything Bad Is Good for You”, gaming is now so widespread that if it did make people more violent, it ought to be obvious. Instead, he notes, in America violent crime actually fell sharply in the 1990s, just as the use of video and computer games was taking off (see chart 2). Of course, it's possible that crime would have fallen by even more over the period had America not taken up video games; still, video gaming has clearly not turned America into a more violent place than it was.

What's more, plenty of games, far from encouraging degeneracy, are morally complex, subtle and, very possibly, improving. Many now explicitly require players to choose whether to be good or evil, and their choices determine how the game they are playing develops.

In “Black & White”, for example, the player must groom a creature whose behaviour and form reflects his moral choices (get it wrong and the results can be ugly—see the illustration). Several games based on the “Star Wars” movies require players to choose between the light and dark sides of the Force, equivalent to good and evil. Perhaps most striking is the sequence in “Halo 2”, a bestselling shoot-'em-up, in which the player must take the role of an alien. Having previously seen aliens as faceless enemies, notes Paul Jackson of Forrester, a consultancy, “suddenly you are asked to empathise with the enemy's position. It's very interesting. Games are much more complex than the critics realise.”

The move away from linear narratives to more complex games that allow players to make moral choices, argues Mr Prensky, means that games provide an opportunity to discuss moral questions. “These are wonderful examples for us to be discussing with our kids,” he says. Indeed, perhaps the best way to address concerns over the effects of video games is to emphasise their vast potential to educate.

Even games with no educational intent require players to learn a great deal. Games are complex, adaptive and force players to make a huge number of decisions. Gamers must construct hypotheses about the in-game world, learn its rules through trial and error, solve problems and puzzles, develop strategies and get help from other players via the internet when they get stuck. The problem-solving mechanic that underlies most games is like the 90% of an iceberg below the waterline—invisible to non-gamers. But look beneath the violent veneer of “Grand Theft Auto”, and it is really no different from a swords-and-sorcery game. Instead of stealing a crystal and delivering it to a wizard so that he can cure the princess, say, you may have to intercept a consignment of drugs and deliver it to a gang boss so he can ransom a hostage. It is the pleasure of this problem-solving, not the superficial violence which sometimes accompanies it, that can make gaming such a satisfying experience.

Nobody is using “Grand Theft Auto” in schools, of course, since it is intended for adults. But other off-the-shelf games such as “Sim City” or “Rollercoaster Tycoon”, which contain model economies, are used in education. By playing them it is possible to understand how such models work, and to deduce what their biases are. (In “Sim City”, for example, in which the player assumes the role of a city mayor, no amount of spending on health care is ever enough to satisfy patients, and the fastest route to prosperity is to cut taxes.)

Games can be used in many other ways. Tim Rylands, a British teacher in a primary school near Bristol, recently won an award from Becta, a government education agency, for using computer games in the classroom. By projecting the fantasy world of “Myst”, a role-playing game, on to a large screen and prompting his 11-year-old pupils to write descriptions and reactions as he navigates through it, he has achieved striking improvements in their English test scores.

Another area where games are becoming more popular is in corporate training. In “Got Game”, a book published last year by Harvard Business School Press, John Beck and Mitchell Wade, two management consultants, argue that gaming provides excellent training for a career in business. Gamers, they write, are skilled at multi-tasking, good at making decisions and evaluating risks, flexible in the face of change and inclined to treat setbacks as chances to try again. Firms that understand and exploit this, they argue, can gain a competitive advantage.

Pilots have been trained using flight simulators for years, and simulators are now used by soldiers and surgeons too. But gaming can be used to train desk workers as well. Mr Prensky's firm has provided simple quiz games for such firms as IBM and Nokia, to test workers' knowledge of rules and regulations, for example. For Pfizer, a drug company, his firm built a simulation of its drug-development process that was then used to train new recruits. Other examples abound: PricewaterhouseCoopers built an elaborate simulation to teach novice auditors about financial derivatives. Some lawyers are using simulators to warm up for court appearances. Convincing older executives of the merits of using games in training can be tricky, Mr Prensky admits. “But when they have a serious strategic training problem, and realise that their own people are 20-year-olds, more and more are willing to take the leap,” he says.

So games are inherently good, not bad? Actually they are neither, like books, films, the internet, or any other medium. All can be used to depict sex and violence, or to educate and inform. Indeed, the inclusion of violent and sexual content in games is arguably a sign of the maturity of the medium, as games become more like films.

Movies provide one analogy for the future of gaming, which seems destined to become a mainstream medium. Games already come in a variety of genres, and are rated for different age groups, just like movies. But just how far gaming still has to go is illustrated by the persistence of the double standard that applies different rules to games and films. Critics of gaming object to violence in games, even though it is common in movies. They worry about the industry's rating model, even though it is borrowed from the movie industry. They call upon big retailers (such as Wal-Mart) not to sell AO-rated games, but seem not to mind that they sell unrated movies that include far more explicit content.

In June, Senator Charles Schumer held a press conference to draw attention to the M-rated game “25 to Life”, in which players take the role of a policeman or a gangster. “Little Johnny should be learning how to read, not how to kill cops,” he declared. True, but little Johnny should not be smoking, drinking alcohol or watching Quentin Tarantino movies either. Just as there are rules to try to keep these things out of little Johnny's hands, there are rules for video games too. Political opportunism is part of the explanation for this double standard: many of gaming's critics in America are Democrats playing to the centre.

Another analogy can be made between games and music—specifically, with the emergence of rock and roll in the 1950s. Like games today, it was a new art form that was condemned for encouraging bad behaviour among young people. Some records were banned from the radio, and others had their lyrics changed. Politicians called for laws banning the sending of offending records by post. But now the post-war generation has grown up, rock and roll is considered to be harmless. Rap music, or gaming, is under attack instead. “There's always this pattern,” says Mr Williams of the University of Illinois. “Old stuff is respected, and new stuff is junk.” Novels, he points out, were once considered too lowbrow to be studied at university. Eventually the professors who believed this retired. Novels are now regarded as literature. “Once a generation has its perception, it is pretty much set,” says Mr Williams. “What happens is that they die.”

Like rock and roll in the 1950s, games have been accepted by the young and largely rejected by the old. Once the young are old, and the old are de

  Citation

ad, games will be regarded as just another medium and the debate will have moved on. Critics of gaming do not just have the facts against them; they have history against them, too. “Thirty years from now, we'll be arguing about holograms, or something,” says Mr Williams.

Et encore des articles :

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/15/vi…and_aggression/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/06/05/us…t_restrictions/

et comme le dit si bien Captain'Capitalism , Video games is good for you ( S'applique aussi aux enfants! )

  Citation

1. You know where they are.

2. You know they are not going to get into a fight or commit crimes.

3. It costs less than going out and boozing it up and clubbing.

4. And, if anything video games act as an enforcer of loyalty because you KNOW FOR A FACT there aren't any other women there.

[leprof]

  Saragator a dit :

Interdire le cinema au moins de 18 ans est devenu un peu absurde cependant, vu l'âge des premiers rapports qui diminue sans cesse (sans parler des connaissances sur le sujet).

Je pense que les cinémas et les sex shop deviennent des phénomènes marginaux qui vont diparaitre. Internet va gagné la bataille du sexe, et de fait il est complètement utopique de garder une limite d'age.

Il nous reste donc 2 choix :

- Laisser les parents agir (mais ne pas négliger leur information sur les outils de controle parental).

- Censurer en partie les communications.

Je rejette la solution 2 et je prends donc la 1.

[Saragator]

  h16 a dit :

Et de toute façon, y'a une limite basse, il me semble.

La limite basse existe ( ) mais elle n'est pas à 18 ans il me semble

[Fredo]

  KaptN a dit :

Justement, il me semble qu'il reste stable depuis quelques temps, à 17 ans, si mes souvenirs sont bons.

Oui, en effet.

[Saragator]

  Fredo a dit :

Oui, en effet.

Je crois que vous avez raison. Mais l'essentiel n'est-il pas ailleurs ? La maturité sexuelle est loin de se situer à 18 ans aujourd'hui (je dirais 15 ans).

Pour le reste je pense comme leprof qu'Internet gagnera la bataille du sexe. Néanmoins, rien ne remplacera les clubs de streap tease et autres lieux de débauches… 18 ans pour ça aussi ?

[leprof]

  Saragator a dit :

Je crois que vous avez raison. Mais l'essentiel n'est-il pas ailleurs ? La maturité sexuelle est loin de se situer à 18 ans aujourd'hui (je dirais 15 ans).

Pour le reste je pense comme leprof qu'Internet gagnera la bataille du sexe. Néanmoins, rien ne remplacera les clubs de streap tease et autres lieux de débauches… 18 ans pour ça aussi ?

C'est déja presque fait, à Paris les sex shop sont tous proche de la faillite !

Pour les clubs, on pourrait élargir le débat aux boîtes de nuit et au bars, il y a aussi l'aspect boisson alcoolisé.

[Fredo]

Tout dépend ce qu'on appelle immaturité. Au vu des récentes découvertes sur le développement céréblal on pourrait en déduire que cela est encore bien trop jeune.

L'insouciance, la prise de risques, la difficulté à évaluer les conséquences de ses actes sont "typiques" des jeunes, et les structures neuronales entre le cortex préfrontal et le système limbique pas encore cimplètement connectées et stabilisées.

La "maturité" est un concept bien trop vague (au sens qu'il y a une foultitude de conduites en jeu) mais surtout qu'elle ne se fait pas du jour au lendemain, et se poursuit encore quelques années après 18 ans.

[Saragator]

  Fredo a dit :

Tout dépend ce qu'on appelle immaturité. Au vu des récentes découvertes sur le développement céréblal on pourrait en déduire que cela est encore bien trop jeune.

L'insouciance, la prise de risques, la difficulté à évaluer les conséquences de ses actes sont "typiques" des jeunes, et les structures neuronales entre le cortex préfrontal et le système limbique pas encore cimplètement connectées et stabilisées.

La "maturité" est un concept bien trop vague (au sens qu'il y a une foultitude de conduites en jeu) mais surtout qu'elle ne se fait pas du jour au lendemain, et se poursuit encore quelques années après 18 ans.

Freddo, j'ai envie de dire…merci.

Tu viens de me redonner confiance dans l'humanité (ou plutôt dans ce forum). Je n'avais pas vu une réponse aussi clair, une vlonté de prendre en considération la complexité de l'être humain depuis…S et Dardanus.

Mis à part cette déclaration, je suis heureux d'apprendre tout ça. Néanmoins, n'est-ce pas problématique dans la théorie du droit (et d'un point de vue libéral) de prendre en compte différent degré de rationalité et de responsabilité selon l'âge (et selon les individus)…

[leprof]

  Saragator a dit :

Freddo, j'ai envie de dire…merci.

Tu viens de me redonner confiance dans l'humanité (ou plutôt dans ce forum). Je n'avais pas vu une réponse aussi clair, une vlonté de prendre en considération la complexité de l'être humain depuis…S et Dardanus.

Mis à part cette déclaration, je suis heureux d'apprendre tout ça. Néanmoins, n'est-ce pas problématique dans la théorie du droit (et d'un point de vue libéral) de prendre en compte différent degré de rationalité et de responsabilité selon l'âge (et selon les individus)…

Tout dépend le libre arbitre que tu accordes aux mineurs : total, partiel, aucun ?

Pour l'instant, les mineurs sont plutôt considéré comme des meubles au niveau du droit français.

[Invité jabial]

  leprof a dit :

Apparament pour vous le débat est clos, le mineur appartient à ses parents (c'est ce qui se dégage de vos propos en tout cas). Mais pourquoi venir sur un forum si vos idées sont les seules acceptables et libérales et qu'elles ne sont pas discutables ?

Niet, personne n'a dit que le mineur appartient à ses parents. Nous disons simplement que la responsabilité de l'éducation de l'enfant est leur, pleine et entière. Ils ne l'exercent pas au nom de Léviathan.

  Mobius a dit :

un mineur:

vis chez ses parents

reçoit son argent de poche de ses vieux

et jusqu'a récemment, la console était branché sur la télé du salon

un droit de regard sur les achats vidéosludiques me parait couler de source.

  leprof a dit :

Et pourquoi fumer et boire et pas les jeux vidéo ? Bon, toi au moins tu acceptes le fait qu'un enfant n'est pas l'objet de ses parents.

En ce qui me concerne, j'ai pu fumer et boire à peu près comme je voulais dès 13 ans. Je ne suis pas mort.

  Citation

Une fois de plus (attention je vais utiliser un argument immoral) vous oubliez les orphelins, les enfants aux parents mentalement déficient ou pervers…

On ne construit pas tout un système sur des exceptions. C'est ce qu'on appelle l'Etat d'exception, un peu comme l'Etat d'urgence - ça permet de justifier n'importe quoi. Que dire des pupilles de l'Etat aux fonctionnaires psychopathes ou pervers?

Un parent est présumé exercer les Droits de son enfant jusqu'à ce que ce dernier puisse en disposer, dans les intérêts de celui-ci. Jusqu'à preuve du contraire.

  Citation

Moi je préfère penser qu'on ne choisit pas ses parents, et que jusqu'à la majorité on doit préserver un mineur au maximum pour que l'enfant devinenne un adulte libre et apte à affronter la vie.

On ne choisit pas son Etat non plus, et heureusement que mes parents ont fait de sacrifices pour me préserver au maximum de son emprise.

  Citation

Je suis le ppremeir à jouer à GTA, mais il faut avouer qu'un gosse de 12 ans ne devrait pas y jouer.

Tu as souvent des conversations avec des enfants avec qui tu n'as pas de rapport d'autorité?

Quand j'avais 12 ans j'ai regardé des films de braquage et je n'ai pas eu envie de devenir braqueur pour autant. Tu crois vraiment que GTA est vu comme de la réalité? Même un gamin de huit ans ne s'y trompe pas.

  leprof a dit :

Merci h16, sur le coup tu sembles le seul raisonnable.

Raisonnable (n.m.) : qui correspond à ce que je crois.

[Fredo]

  Saragator a dit :

Mis à part cette déclaration, je suis heureux d'apprendre tout ça. Néanmoins, n'est-ce pas problématique dans la théorie du droit (et d'un point de vue libéral) de prendre en compte différent degré de rationalité et de responsabilité selon l'âge (et selon les individus)…

La science nous permet de mieux comprendre certains phénomènes, comme dans ce cas la quasi inefficacité des tentatives d'éducation des jeunes par les campagnes de "sensibilisation" qu'on nous ressort habituellement. De toutes façons ça fait plus de cinquante ans qu'on connaît les limites de la communication de masse, pour d'autres raisons, et que nos politiques semblent ignorer.

Après le problème, c'est que la "maturation" se mesure difficilement et covarie entre les individus. Il serait plus simple d'étudier une conduite donnée. C'est tout le problème de la psychométrie. On observe des corrélations, qui peuvent ensuite par une théorie permettre de comprendre des choses, mais l'individu statistique "moyen" n'existe pas, de même qu'il est ensuite difficile de prédire pour tel individu l'intensité de tel ou tel facteur.

La théorie du droit se trouve en effet confrontée à une problématique si elle veut en tirer des idées.

On pourrait ainsi considérer le jeune âge comme une circonstance atténuante, puisque "moins responsable". Mais d'un autre côté on sait que l'individu est encore en phase de construction et que ce sont justement les limites, les normes, etc., qui contribuent à la structuration de la personnalité. A un moment donné il faut bien qu'il assume.

[Legion]

  h16 a dit :

Il y a assez peu de jeux vidéos pornographiques. Mais les techniques progressent, et le joystick portera un jour vraiment bien son nom, j'en suis certain.

!!!

Toi tu connais bien mal le marché japonais !

[Calembredaine]

  Saragator a dit :

Ma question est surtout de savoir jusqu'où l'État doit intervenir dans le domaine de la pornographie pour la protection de l'enfance.

Justement, c'est le coeur du débat. Pour un libéral, les éventuelles études doivent lui servir à se faire une opinion et agir en conséquence avec ses gosses. Pas ceux des autres. Autrement dit, que l'Etat nous foute la paix, comment les Hommes de l'Etat pourrait mieux savoir ce qui est bon pour tous les enfants? C'est absurde.

[pankkake]

Ma seule contribution à ce débat : les rares fois où j'ai des envies violentes, je lance mon FPS préféré.

Et je serai le premier à jouer aux jeux les plus immoraux, alors que je ne ferai pas de mal à une mouche. Tout simplement parce que ça me permet d'accomplir (au moins partiellement) mes besoins naturels de psychopathe* sans faire aucune victime.

J'attends d'ailleurs impatiemment le premier shoot/rape them all en réalité virtuelle totale.

* Et je pense qu'on est beaucoup, beaucoup dans ce cas.

[h16]

  Legion a dit :

!!!

Toi tu connais bien mal le marché japonais !

Ah ça oui c'est clair. Et assez mal le marché du jeu vidéo… Notamment porno. Mais je ne m'en cache pas. J'assume mon hypopornoludie latente.