[Sérieux] Immigration : questions et débats libéraux

[Tremendo]

Oui c'est comme dire reconduite aux frontieres et expulsion au lieu de dire déportation.

Déportation signifie pour des pouvoirs publics forcer une catégorie ou un groupe de personnes à quitter leur habitat pour aller s'installer ailleurs (ou les retenir dans des camps).

Dans le cas des clandestins qui viennent d'arriver ou sont là depuis peu de temps, je ne pense pas que le mot déportation soit approprié. Pour les étrangers établis depuis plus longtemps et poussés vers la sortie du jour au lendemain il y a débat par contre.

[Mathieu_D]

"Déportation" implique un point de chute connu (et désagréable). Ce n'est pas rigoureux de dire que c'est équivalent à être invité à aller n'importe où ailleurs.

[Flashy]

Oui, une expulsion c'est "dégage de là !", une déportation c'est "va là-bas !" 

 

(c'était le point "définition et sémantique"  )

 

 

[sans]

Il faut avoir l'esprit plus large, au fond, entre "cet endroit" et "partout sauf ici" il n'y a qu'une différence de superficie. Autrement dit déporter quelqu'un dans camp c'est l'expulser de l'univers à l'exception du camp ; et expulser quelqu'un d'Autriche c'est le déporter dans l'univers à l'exception de l'Autriche.

 

A diptèrophile, diptèrophile et demi.

[Loi]

Moi, en faisant jouer ma jugeotte et en mettant mes apriori libertariens de côté, je vois trois flics face à soixante types menaçants qui doivent éviter qu'une autoroute (qui est, disons-le, un lieu de passage, un petit peu quand même) devienne envahie par des gens hostiles. Les migrants ont atteint l'un des véhicules de police et l'ont retournée d'après ce que dit le flic en radio et visiblement ils ont utilisé tous leurs "moyens lacrymo", donc déjà avant ça a du chauffer.

C'est donc bien une situation violente.

Et ce ne sont visiblement pas des CRS, juste des motards.

 

On peut aisément lire le sigle "CRS" sur l'avant de leurs motos.

[Voy]

Mea cul plat.

[Malky]

Se sentir Belge ? Qu'est-ce que ça signifie ?

C'est un peu comme sentir la friture, mais en plus prononcé.

[Voy]

Et en moins bien.

[Philiber Té]

Pour rebondir sur ce que disait Flashy, existe-t-il toujours un monopole de l'assistance aux migrants / sans-papiers aux mains de l'État ? Il me semble qu'il y a une loi qui empêche les associations (ou les individus de manière générale) d'aider un clandestin ou un sans-papier. Si on doit résoudre le "problème de l'immigration", il serait peut être raisonnable de revenir sur ce genre d'interdiction...

[NoName]

aider un clandestin c'est pas passible de prison ?

[Tramp]

Abolit par Hollande je crois.

[NoName]

C'est illégal techniquement mais il y a l'air d'avoir une exemption qui est

- tu es de la famille

- tu es le conjoint

- tu le fais sans contrepartie

[Philiber Té]

Effectivement, le délit de solidarité n'existe plus depuis 2013, au temps pour moi.

[PJE]

De l'autre coté de la Manche, ils ont peur de ce qui se passe à Calais. En France, j'ai pas l'impression que l'on soit vraiment inquiet.

 

 

Calais crisis: Fears Isil may use migrant chaos to slip jihadists in to UK Returning fanatics may try and hide among the thousands of refugees who have massed at the port to sneak in to Britain

Isil might exploit the illegal immigrant crisis at Calais to try and slip jihadists back in to the UK, it is feared.

Returning fanatics may try and hide among the thousands of refugees who have massed at the port to sneak on to lorries and cars heading across the Channel, raising security fears here.

Terror suspects and Isil extremists have already used illegal immigrants as cover to slip in to Europe and the growing chaos at Calais could provide an opportunity to get in to Britain undetected.

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, stressed police were not aware of any examples so far but accepted “It is a concern, it is possible.”

British jihadists wanting to return home need to slip back under the radar of the police and security services to avoid arrest when they arrive.

Some have even hid among illegal migrants to get out of the UK undetected so they can get to Syria in the first place.

Security at Calais is under question following the chaotic scenes on Tuesday when a wildcat strike by French ferry workers brought the port to a standstill.

The resulting miles and miles of queuing lorries were then a sitting duck for the illegal migrants who swarmed all over them in a desperate bid to reach the UK.

There are also concerns over how easy French protestors managed to break through security fencing around the Channel Tunnel terminal and set fire to tyres on the tracks, bringing services to a halt.

 

 

There are more than 3,000 migrants in makeshift camps at Calais and the numbers are expected to swell to more than 5,000 by the end of the summer.

That could provide perfect cover for fanatics and terror suspects.

The French authorities have now drafted in extra police at the port and James Brokenshire, the British immigration minister, said extra resources were being provided at Dover to enhance checks here.

Eurotunnel spokesman John Keefe said every truck arriving at the terminal on the French side would now have to be systematically searched to check no migrants had managed to slip inside.

^{Striking employees of the French company My Ferry Link stand in front of tyres set on fire as they block the access to the Channel Tunnel in Calais (Philippe Huguen / AFP)}

A new hit squad of National Crime Agency officers and agents from GCHQ and MI6 is also to be set up to target the people traffickers helping thousands of migrants cross from north Africa and in to Europe.

A Downing Street spokesman said: “We have got to do more to break the link between getting on a boat in the Med and getting settlement in Europe.

“Otherwise these vast numbers will just keep on coming. That’s why the Government is setting up a dedicated law enforcement team to tackle organised immigration crime in the Med region.

“Around 90 officers will be deployed in the UK, the Mediterranean and Africa to pursue and disrupt these organised crime groups profiting from the people smuggling trade.

“They will exploit every opportunity at source, in transit countries and in Europe to smash the gangs’ criminal operations and better protect the UK from this threat.”

The disruption at Calais entered a second day as migrants continued to target lorries still queuing there.

• British students 'groomed to smuggle illegal immigrants from Calais'
• France 'must provoke diplomatic incident with UK over migrants'

Hundreds of British motorists were stranded in Calais on Tuesday night, many stuck for hours in traffic jams after being taken by surprise by a wildcat strike exploited by scores of desperate migrants.

French ferry workers initiated the chaos in England and France by blocking the port and entrance to the Channel tunnel, even burning tyres on the tracks.

Hundreds of illegal migrants then seized on the miles of tailbacks caused by the blockages to try and jump onto lorries bound for the UK without being spotted.

Images this morning show migrants huddled at the side of the motorway while others are seen opening the back doors on lorries stuck in traffic.

Mr Brokenshire told the BBC: "We are putting additional resourcing into the port of Dover to enhance screenings and detections there so that we're looking at this on both sides of the Channel."

He said the current situation was "hugely regrettable", but that is was “ultimately” the responsibility of the French authorities to tackle the chaos seen throughout Tuesday in Calais.

The migrants lined junction 42 of the A16 motorway, the main entrance for cars and lorries taking the Eurotunnel to the UK, approaching trucks in small groups and trying to board by all possible means throughout the night.

 

 

Eurotunnel said the number of migrants in the Calais area was the “highest ever” as stranded motorists were warned to keep their doors locked. Truck drivers were advised not to stop within 60 miles of the port, congregate with other drivers and make sure padlocks were kept on vehicles.

With Calais ferries, Eurostar and Eurotunnel services expected to face huge delays into Wednesday, Britons who tried to find rooms in a string of hotels in and around the port before sunset to avoid spending the night sleeping in their vehicles.

Daniel Hunt, 40, from Balcombe, Sussex, was returning to the UK from Belgium with his father and brother after visiting Second World War bomber crash sites.

“We saw loads of migrants as we drove down the line of traffic trying to get into trucks,” he said. “We had heard stories of migrants trying to get into cars and we thought if night falls it’s only going to get worse. The last thing you want is to fall asleep in your car to find you’ve been joined by someone in the night.”

“What’s shocking is to see how blatant the migrants’ attempts to get in were. It looked to me like the police were turning a bit of a blind eye unless there was real trouble. They were not really being deterred, and were allowed to walk around the trucks.”

Others accused travel companies of cashing in on their misery.

Irish motorist Oonagh Maclachlan who lives in Andorra and is coming to the UK to visit family, said: “We were supposed to be getting the 4pm ferry today and of course nothing has moved today due to the strike, so we’re stuck.”

“Today our ticket was only 35 pounds and at the same time tomorrow it’s £83. We’re p----- off to put it bluntly. The ferry company has got us by the short and curlies. We intend to turn up with our old ticket and see what happens. We have got to get to England tomorrow, we’ve got commitments.”

She and her husband saw the remnants of the fire that the protesters had started at the tunnel entrance. “There was lots of smouldering debris of wood and tyres and three or four armchairs piled up,” she said.

^{Strikers on the Channel Tunnel approach track}

 

 

Eurostar services were expected to start running normally by Wednesday morning, according to French television station BFM TV, but delays were thought to be likely.

 

 

Calais ferry and Eurotunnel services were also expected to be restarted on Wednesday morning, with repair works conducted overnight on railway tracks damaged by striking ferry workers who lit protest fires on Tuesday.

The French government on Tuesday night asked Eurotunnel to find a "better solution in terms of jobs" concerning the future of MyFerry, the company whose workers staged Tuesday's wildcat strike. Eurotunnel announced it was selling two of its three MyFerry vessels this month to Danish operator DFDS with expected job losses.

After nightfall on Tuesday, dozens of gendarmes in fluorescent jackets lined either side of the road as groups of migrants waited for a moment of inattention to sneak on board lorries, which were still moving at a crawl towards the Eurotunnel terminal.

^{Migrants in Calais wait along a motorway leading to a ferry port (AP)}

The Telegraph saw gendarmes open the back of a Dutch truck and pull out two migrants who had hidden in amongst cardboard crates of what looked like vegetables.

“This is the first time I’ve ever had any in my lorry,” said trucker Adam Zoon who had driven from Rotterdam. “I feel bad as they are poor and with nothing. But they are stopping me doing my job,” he said as another migrant was pulled out from a neighbouring truck.

 

 

• Illegal immigrants caught at UK border more than doubled last year, says 'British FBI'

The police simply let all the stowaways go and they were welcomed by a group of Syrians and Eritreans who patted them on the back.

Ali, a 29-year-old from Syria and who arrived 34 days ago, said he had managed to hide in the back of a lorry and “almost made it” to the tunnel entrance. “The lorry driver must have sensed I was there because police opened up, shouted and pulled me out,” he said.

_{A striking employee of the French company My Ferry Link, a cross-channel ferry service, sits on a tyre in front of tyres set on fire as he takes part in a blockade of the access to the Channel Tunnel (AFP)}

He said that he had heard about the ferry workers strike, and that all the trucks had been diverted to the tunnel.

“News travels fast here. We are all immigrants and we all want to get to England.”

“They are even more strict than usual and are checking every vehicle,” he said. Despite this, he knew of one fellow countryman who had got through. “I would think that around 50 will make it to the UK tonight,” he said.

“We don’t want to stay in France as they treat us like animals. In England, they treat us like humans,” he said. “We don’t want to come for tourism, but to escape war, to find peace and safety. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to get to work.”

A Gendarmerie spokesman said: "We have mobilised more units than usual given the exceptional circumstances. It's clear there are many more migrants than normal."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11695862/Calais-crisis-Fears-Isil-may-use-migrant-chaos-to-slip-jihadists-in-to-UK.html

[Neomatix]

S'ils veulent limiter le risque d'avoir des djihadistes dans les migrants, le plus simple et le moins coûteux reste encore de laisser tout le monde passer et de pratiquer des examens psychologiques et de leurs antécédents avant de les "lâcher" sur le territoire.

Forcément, les barricader dehors n'aura pour effets que d'augmenter les tensions et le risque que beaucoup passent totalement clandestinement.

[Neuron]

Quand on parle de "migrants", on parle bien de clandestins, on est d'accord?

C'est plutôt amusant, ce changement de dénomination.

Car on insiste sur le fait qu'il est en transite.

On dirait "sans-papier" maintenant. Dir "clandestin" te fait passer pour un non-républicain.

[Adrian]

 

L’accueil et l’intégration des étrangers admis au séjour : "Nos flux d’immigrations professionnelles sont parmi les plus faibles au monde, note Bernard Cazeneuve. Nous soumettons les étrangers qui viennent en France à un véritable parcours administratif du combattant. Nous soumettons des centaines de milliers d’étrangers a près d’une dizaine de passage en préfecture par an alors comment s’intégrer quand on court de titre précaire en titre précaire ?"

>>> L’attractivité de la France pour recevoir les plus grands talents internationaux : "La France a besoin de talents étrangers à la fois pour sa compétitivité et pour son rayonnement, insiste le ministre. La mondialisation entraine une concurrence entre États pour attirer les meilleurs talents, se priver de ses talents à cause d’une réglementation sourcilleuse reviendrait à se condamner à une forme d’aporie (une contradiction insoluble, ndlr)."

http://www.lcp.fr/videos/reportages/172976-bernard-cazeneuve-la-france-a-besoin-de-talents-etrangers

 

[Tramp]

Y a pas que la réglementation Bernard, y a aussi les impôts.

[Neuron]

Il a raison cazeneuve.

C'est à cause de ça que l'on n'attire pas les physiciens nucléaires maliens.

[Fadior]

La situation des réfugiés sur l'ile grecque de Lesvos devient préoccupante.

 

Footage of Greek people on the island of Lesvos raiding a food truck. Shocking.

[Tramp]

On croirait voir des chauffeurs de taxi ou des agriculteurs.

[Rincevent]

La situation des réfugiés sur l'ile grecque de Lesvos devient préoccupante.

Footage of Greek people on the island of Lesvos raiding a food truck. Shocking.

Les femmes n'ont qu'à s'y manger entre elles...

[Cugieran]

Initialement, l'immigration en Europe, c'était un peu la roue de secours de la natalité basse. 

Si on a le mariage pour tous et que tout le monde préfère débarquer sur Lesbos, c'est pas gagné

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2015/08/18/97001-20150818FILWWW00345-grece-l-ile-de-lesbos-submergees-de-migrants.php

 

[Rübezahl]

Les chiffres des demandeurs d'asile en Europe en 2014 - via @uplib http://uplib.fr/wiki/UL15080911

 

[Nigel]

 L'immigré comme pompe social aspirante va peut-être disparaître en France. Podemos et Syriza souhaitent visiblement les accueillir et payer pour eux. On récupérera les immigrés qui veulent travailler^^ 

[Escondido]

Parait que 700 000 immigres pointent leur nez cette anne en Allemagne. J'imagine pas le bordel que ca causerait en France.

[Nigel]

 Faut voir quel genre d'immigrés. Pour un français, l'immigré n'est un problème que si il est originaire d'Afrique. 

[Invité]

ça me donne envie d'acheter à calais, ce vivier de compétences qui s'y développe, ce serait con de passer à côté. 

[Philiber Té]

Parce que je ne suis pas sûr que cette image avait sa place avec les images funs :

On m'a fait remarqué dernièrement que la majorité des migrants voulaient aller au Royaume Uni pour trouver du travail et non pas des aides sociales. A partir de là, plus de libéralisme = plus d'intérêt pour les migrants. Devinez le sens de "plus"...

[Bisounours]

J'avais trouvé ce site, le connaissez vous ?    

http://www.planete-senegal.com/senegal/comment_emigrer_en_france.php